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What to expect from RED’s Nov 3 Scarlet Update?

18 Comments Published by Matthew Jeppsen October 31st, 2011 in Cameras, News

Unless you’ve been under a rock for the past few weeks, you are probably aware of the much-ballyhooed “stay tuned for November 3rd” announcements from Canon and RED. Here’s a rough accounting of what has happened in the past month or so (with a fair bit of my opinion sprinkled in there for good measure).

First, Canon announced that they would announce something mindblowingly amazingly shocking on November 3rd. Fanboys rejoiced. Shortly after that news and the ensuing rumors/speculation, RED announced that they would announce something that would rock our worlds and cause us to weep from the sheer joy and enormity of their big product announcement. Fanboys rejoiced, and things escalated quickly. There were horses, a man on fire, and Brick killed a guy with a trident.

Yep, both Canon and RED have been playing it up for weeks. Gamechanger, etc…you know the drill. Canon isn’t saying what the gear is, and all the usual suspects that have their grubby paws on the new camera (yeah, it’s a camera), have signed NDA’s and aren’t talking. RED is also playing coy, no real camera specs or details to speak of, but they are dropping the normal vague hints and marshaling the adoration of the faithful REDheads over at Reduser forum.

RED has stated that the Nov 3 announcement will be related to Scarlet, that elusive unicorn of a camera that they’ve been tempting indies with for roughly three years now. Heck, maybe longer…I lose count when it comes to Scarlet du jour. Anyway, what’s interesting is that in the last week, with the fanboys in both camps whipped into a frothing, wide-eyed rumormill frenzy, RED’s Jim Jannard has been tempering expectations on the Reduser forums.

A couple days ago, Jannard stated “Scarlet is now a professional camera. It will be more expensive. And there will be no discounts for RED ONE owners.” followed by “If you were expecting 3K for $3K… this is bad news.” Bear in mind, that 3K for $3K is a phrase that RED themselves created and hyped. Which makes Jim’s quote later in the thread even more ironic; “No one will be disappointed if they ignore all previous conceived notions.”

At the suggestion that Scarlet would include “4K 72fps for 10K” along with HDRX, Jannard responded “Sounds like EPIC… lower your expectations. Really. Not close. This is what bugs me. And you get something like this from where?”

Pardon me, but that’s a laughable statement, given the rhetoric that’s been pushed out in recent weeks…ahem…Jannard from just a couple weeks earlier; “Scarlet is going to blow you away” and “I’m expecting Nov. 3rd to be the biggest announcement in the history of RED.”

It bugs me too, Jim. It bugs me that you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to put out statements like that, expect Redusers to dream big. And when people dream big, there will always be those who are disappointed by the reality of what you can feasibly deliver. You made that bed, now you get to sleep in it. Or as one Reduser put it so eloquently: “Soaring rhetoric is matched by soaring expectations.”

Now, for a look at what to realistically expect from Scarlet in a couple days, look to the past. RED has said TONS about what Scarlet will be over the last 3 years, and what they showed at NAB 2011 is probably pretty close to what you’ll see in a few days. Take a look at this video from NAB 2011, by the crew over at Wide Open Camera. They interview Ted Schilowitz on Scarlet:

As Ted says in the video, it’s a fixed 8x zoom lens camera with stills and video…note that he specifically talked about pulling stills from video, not necessarily two different functions. DSMC doesn’t mean two functions, it means high-res video that you can pull stills from. But the point I’d like to note is this…Ted says specifically while pointing to Scarlet, “This is the 3k version.” Is that a clue that they might differentiate Scarlet models by resolution options? RED does always seem to come down to resolution as their rallying feature.

Bottom line, I believe the Scarlet camera they will announce (and reportedly ship in quantity shortly after) on Nov 3rd is the following…essentially “Epic Lite”; a roughly DSLR-shaped modular camera that can take most RED accessories (Redmote, EVF, batts, etc), with a fixed 8x zoom lens at 3K resolution coming from a 2/3″ sensor. I’d expect 1-60fps, some limitations in terms of codec bitrates and such to differentiate it from Epic. I don’t think it will include HDRx, and I don’t think they will offer an interchangeable lens option even at a higher price point…they have to protect Epic owners. I personally WISH it would include up to around 90fps at 1080p or better, but it seems that Jannard scoffed at the idea of 72fps…so I suppose that’s out. Jannard has vaguely hinted that there might be three Scarlet models announced, my guess would be that the differences will largely be internal features…codec, HDRx on/off, etc. All determined by price…and perhaps it’s a firmware upgrade model, ala Sony’s F3 SLOG option. I’d guess $7,000-$9,000 USD for the base model. All speculation, and I’m sure I’ll be wrong on many points. I hope that I’m very wrong on framerates.

Ultimately, if Scarlet is priced appropriately, I’m sure RED will find a market for it. It just may not be the market that they initially garnered interest from wayyyy back when the plan for Scarlet was a high-fps, interchangeable-lens S35 camera. Which basically got rolled into Epic. The old interchangeable lens S35 Scarlet for around $10-12K was the last time that Scarlet interested me personally.

Anyway, we’ll all see what the scoop is, come November 3rd. I’m sure you’ll be shocked and amazed…just so long as you keep your expectations in check.

18 Responses to “What to expect from RED’s Nov 3 Scarlet Update?”  

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  1. 1 Nels Chick Oct 31st, 2011 at 10:09 pm

    I heard from a little bird that the new Canon camera is very “special.” That’s all I could wrangle from that birdy, but it got me thinking about the future of RED.

    RED has some stiff competition in the small budget arena. I shot with the Sony FS-100 last week, and I have to say it has greatness. Not perfection, but the price is right. Sure, I haven’t shot a frame of movie film in my life, but I’ll be danged if that Sony sensor isn’t clean, sharp, and perdy.

    I hope RED does better than you’re predicting, but you make a lot of sense (jerk). I doubt we’ll see HDRx for under $10k. I hope we see higher frame rates, but I’m starting to doubt it. I do think we’ll see a Super 35mm sensor, and maybe a 2/3″ as well. Removable lenses, I have a good feeling about that. Swing on over to the RED.com store and click on a lens.

    I’m super excited either way. I’ll continue renting for a bit longer.

  2. 2 Adrian Jackson Oct 31st, 2011 at 10:33 pm

    Unlike most of the RED/Canon fanboys, I actually would drop $10k on a 2/3\ 8x fixed lens at 3k Scarlet without second thought – if I had $10k to drop.

    That is essentially a really awesome version of the EX1. The EX1 is limited in its codec, its sensor size (2/3\ is the defacto broadcast standard and 50mbps the expected bit rate) and the Scarlet Ted is showing above sounds awesome in comparison to the EX1.

    I do hope though that they provide an interchangeable version that can take 2/3\ ENG lenses. I use EX1/EX3s for low end multicam broadcast work and being able to buy a 2/3\ camera body for a sub $15k price point that records in a good codec would be a no brainer.

  3. 3 Aaron Oct 31st, 2011 at 11:25 pm

    I have a feeling Nov. 3rd will be a day fraught with disappointment on both fronts. RED and Canon, in my opinion, have both oversold themselves in one way or another. This is of course based purely on speculation so I could be completely wrong. If I’m right though, I’m totally telling all of my friends to come back and read this comment I made so they can see how smart I am at predicting camera launch results before they happen.

  4. 4 DM Wexler Oct 31st, 2011 at 11:32 pm

    Matt,
    Right on…The old adage if something is to good to be true it probably is. I’m scheduled to be at both events and now after weeks of wondering I think I’m going to sit both out.
    The problem is that manufactures never fully deliver and while they get close it never fully satisfies on all but the highest of levels.
    When many of us sat down with Panasonic earlier this year and said you guys have some good things going on but, you are really not in the game anymore they said \what do you want?\ Essentially we all put in our 2 cents and came up with camera from Panasonic that was a modular 4K S35 sensor had their color science @444 ran full frame not windowed @ 150fps minimum and was Ultra AVC-I to P2 media. All at a sub 60K price-point. The other thing was the interface, it had to be user friendly. Basically no compromises. The far east Panasonic techs just kind of stared at us as if to say \never going to happen\. Well it won’t!
    Inventive people and 3rd party folks always seem to pu the slack and they seem to \make things work\.
    There is no doubt in my mind that Canon or Red could really deliver, if they wanted.
    Frankly, I’m interested on what Kodak is going to bring out next…..

  5. 5 Gil Woodley Nov 1st, 2011 at 12:30 am

    I agree with Matthew – it’s disingenuous to suggest that people are speculating wildly – about either camera – when this is precisely what both companies have engendered in order to create a media event. Will the cameras disappoint? Well, yeah, but you know, there’s always next year’s camera…

  6. 6 Makea Nov 1st, 2011 at 3:56 am

    My guess, canon buys red or there’s a partnership involved to share tech: sensor design, processors, software, etc.

  7. 7 mark tierney Nov 1st, 2011 at 5:55 am

    The Canon is aimed at Sony, not RED. It will be what I wanted the F3 to be – a usable ENG style camcorder with up to 4K out (if the F3 had a 4K option I’d own one now). It will be very good, and at entry pro price (around $12k).
    There will probably be some lenses to go with it, again, a la F3 for a $15k package. 60fps max I imagine.

    Next year there will be a new 5D or 7D to top-line their DSLR video range at $4k.

    Scarlet can stay viable with a 2/3rds sensor as long as it has 100+fps. I think there will be an interchangeable lens version. Be VERY surprised if its 4k resolution, but that is their calling card. If they do go S35 sensor, interchangeable for $10-12k then they will cannibalize the lower 80% of the EPIC market, and lose the war eventually. RED are a very good company, but haven’t the reach of Sony or Canon. I can certainly see them being bought by someone, but not Canon.

  8. 8 Stu Mannion Nov 1st, 2011 at 6:56 am

    My reading is that is that Scarlet will have HDR. That was the reason for a theoretical price bump a while back and there’s nothing to suggest they’re going backwards on specs (just upwards in price).

    All I really want is a 5D without moire or rolling shutter issues. Maybe next year.

  9. 9 Brian Kaufman Nov 1st, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    I would be really surprised if RED were ever sold. It’s Jim Jannard’s baby, and he’s not exactly wanting for money (Forbes has him at something like 3b in value personally). I don’t think Red needs the resources of a Canon to go the places it wants to go; and really Jim’s attitude towards Canon and the other “bigs” in the industry doesn’t come out as friendly (more playfully adversarial).

  10. 10 Ernnio Mandlate Nov 2nd, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    I personally think RED will dissapoint more people than Canon will. Just a feeling…

  11. 11 brian merlen Nov 3rd, 2011 at 1:29 am

    Words fail to grasp what Jim has done with cameras. In 4 short years since proving it wasn’t vaporware he is now producing the best cameras in the world, that shoot huge blockbuster films. The fact it shoots raw, has the frame rates, and the resolution are key selling points, in addition to size and modularity. The Scarlet will out shoot the Alexa in almost every category at a fraction of the price. The Epic and Red One will out shoot future models by other companies. I have drank the punch and the color is red, I ain’t going back

  12. 12 Mike Curtis Nov 3rd, 2011 at 2:59 am

    My guesses (and no, I do NOT know anything special nor have I talked to anyone at Red about it):

    In this market, GOTTA have a 35mm sensor to compete – what (perceived) good is a 3K res sensor if you don’t have depth of field? Keep in mind FS100 and AF100 are shipping in bulk

    -the fixed lens model may be dead

    -3K res sounds about right.

    -S35 sensor sounds right

    -HDRX? Sorry Charlie, that is what the Big Boys pay the Big Bucks for with Epic. You’re asking the camera to record twice the amount of data – all along Red has said one of the key differentiators will be how much horsepower the electronics have

    -similarly, no/limited high speed footage mode. I figure frame rate/resolution combos will be similar to Red One but scaled down. Maybe 2K@120 at BEST. But I doubt even that.

    -under $10K – otherwise why bother?

    And it’ll sound great at first, until you realize how many, and how expensive, the accessories are to make it a shootable, workable configuration. And how expensive PL glass is.

    A cheaper Epic in a smaller form factor, but with limited capabilities – lower frame rates, no HDRX, lower resolution, more compression.

    The selling points will be the MX related sensor, 3K resolution (which should make GREAT looking 1080p), under $10K price point, and Redcode. Redcode ROCKS as a codec for efficient compression. Unfortunately, doesn’t play back well without hardware (and NOT GPU) acceleration.

    -mike (hd for indies guy)

    -

  13. 13 mark tierney Nov 3rd, 2011 at 4:49 am

    @ Brian. Wow.

    I think Canon go 4K at $12k today, Sony will go 4K at $20k in response mid-2012 and Panasonic will go 4K at $8K around the same time.

    I agree with Mike above – Scarlet will have to become a mini-Epic to compete on volume. I love RED – but competing with those three companies in the high-res market will test them.

    However, with this choice what people will buy/rent will depend on the look they favour not the tech resolution.

    What WILL be changed forever will be the rental market, as we’ve seen with the sudden growth of netflix style lens rental. These cams will rent for $150 a day packaged. That’s when your indie feature market really explodes.

  14. 14 Ernnio Mandlate Nov 3rd, 2011 at 6:11 am

    “Words fail to grasp what Jim has done with cameras. In 4 short years since proving it wasnt vaporware he is now producing the best cameras in the world, that shoot huge blockbuster films. The fact it shoots raw, has the frame rates, and the resolution are key selling points, in addition to size and modularity. The Scarlet will out shoot the Alexa in almost every category at a fraction of the price. The Epic and Red One will out shoot future models by other companies. I have drank the punch and the color is red, I aint going back”

    Nobody ever questioned RED’s accomplishment. I just don’t think that gives them the free pass to continuously hype a below 10k product and then not release it. If they did that without passing judgement on those that choose to buy DSLRs and other 1080p cameras people would have far more respect for them. And don’t think for a second that I never shot with a RED MX cause I have and it’s a great camera, just like I’m sure the RED Epic is. But this recent change in rhetoric from RED upper management, asking us to manage our expectations with the Scarlet is downright laughable considering they have hyped this beyond belief.

  15. 15 Ernnio Mandlate Nov 3rd, 2011 at 10:17 pm

    I eat my words…RED delivered, Canon didn’t. I was wrong.

  16. 16 DM Wexler Nov 4th, 2011 at 9:48 am

    I concur I have eaten my words….I ordered a scarlet PL camera yesterday. Now that said, it was HUGE leap of faith for me, one not being a RED fanboy and secondly knowing their MO on delivery dates.
    Additionally with all the other gack to make it work in terms of cost it another story as well.

    While I was not at the canon event yesterday in person the imagery looked very pleasing……but I have to agree with another person’s comment, Canon needed to get these cameras in the hands of DIRECTORS to tell stories…..not VFX people or Cinematographer’s. Everything I looked at seemed wonderful for episodic but was lacking (and I’m projecting here, sorry for the pun) a real cinematic (as in feeling for widescreen) experience in terms of the imagery.
    Seriously, go ask Terrence Malick, Ridley Scott, David Lynch or PT Anderson for example to do a short project for them.

    My 2 cents….

  17. 17 adam Nov 22nd, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    I though the purpose of the fixed lens and the scarlet package was for small studios and
    indie people. Now that they went about $4k more for the body than previously stated this year at http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/video/2011/jan/08/ces-2011-red-scarlet-camera

    So now if I need to take a loan out for $15k on a complete kit I might as well get a little more out and get the red one. ]

    I’m going wait to see what the other manu. are doing hell i waited 4 years for the scarlet

  18. 18 Solar Arrow Board Jan 16th, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    RED has some stiff competition in the small budget arena. I shot with the Sony FS-100 last week, and I have to say it has greatness. Not perfection, but the price is right. Sure, I havent shot a frame of movie film in my life, but Ill be danged if that Sony sensor isnt clean, sharp, and perdy.