Shoot video with a DSLR? You should be embarrassed.
Published by Matthew Jeppsen June 16th, 2010 in Cameras, News, ResearchRED’s Jim Jannard made a statement on the Reduser forum recently that doesn’t sit right with me. I quote:
I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera. At that point, the difference will be RAW 5K and 6K vs. whatever they make. Until then, a line-skipping 1080P camera is just not in the running for a pro camera. Can you make OK images with a line-skipping 1080P camera? Sure. Should you be embarrassed? Yes. We are not in that business.I saw the Canon commercial about shooting “motion stills”. They should be ashamed. Just try to take a still from their motion 1080P capture…
Jim
I appreciate the crux of what he is getting at…I appreciate his take-no-prisoners, uncompromising attitude. And yes, the current crop of imperfect DSLRs are a bridge technology, we all know it. But disparaging pros who choose to work around these issues for the present reflects rather poorly on Mr. Jannard. So my response to Jim is this:
I’ll be embarrassed for shooting on DSLRs when you ship a camera that can compete in roughly the same price and featureset. Until then, it’s all marketing hyperbole.-Matt
You see, the problem for my production business is that I’m having a hard time making money with my non-existent Scarlet camera system.
(via Photography Bay, also a few other comments on this from a good EOSHD post)
UPDATE: Jim replied later in the thread to clarify some of his comments. See that original post here (quoted below):
Heh heh… I’m surprised that so many people are reading posts from Reduser! :-) Wow.Clarification #1. I think that Canon should be embarrassed about pretending that line-skipping is good enough when they have the capability to do much more. I’m sure they will in the near future. Until then, they are delivering much less than they are capable of… which is one of the reasons I started this company. No one in this industry seems to move unless they are forced to.
Clarification #2. No shooting professional has to justify what equipment they use… only their results.
If people want to correctly point out our flaws as a company, they will only be joining my previous admissions. We have no idea what we are doing. We are always late.
On the other hand, I would bet that no company in any industry cares more about their customers than RED does. We have taught the industry about free upgrades, trade ins and customer service at 3am. We have set a new standard for direct communication with our customers, a standard that other companies are trying to figure out how to emulate.
I don’t have any problem with someone pointing out that I have no idea what I am doing… I have said that all along. But it is curious that the industry is falling in line to “be like RED”. All I can say is … “don’t do it. You are following the wrong guy.” :-)
If these other websites are going to post my comments, I certainly hope they will post this one without edit.
BTW… we have taken a lesson from Apple. We will no longer discuss what we are doing until we are done.
Jim
I’ll refrain from adding my own thoughts to his latest comments. There is some good commentary from FreshDV readers below.
33 Responses to “Shoot video with a DSLR? You should be embarrassed.”
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I agree. Talk is cheap. I cannot make films on a camera I do not have. If we’re going to talk about embarrassment I think ‘beyond-comical product delays’ is a much better candidate.
Wow. I’m sort of speechless. How on earth can he say this and not expect to rile some people up. He’s starting to sound bitter. The thing is, by the time he finally gets round to releasing the Scarlett , Canon will probably be on their second iteration of the 5dII , or even have a camera designed specifically for video with that sensor. We all know it will come at some time and with this delay now for Red I can totally see it happening beforehand. And I’m sure Canon’s next offering will step things up considerably with pro features as that is what people are clammering for. It was never intended as a pro video camera in the first place anyway ! So that fact that it has done such remarkable things for the industry is crazy, and the next version will be much improved.
Ok maybe that reads badly,… but seriously as much as I love the 5D - you have a LOT of non-professional workarounds with a 5D
- yes it produces some great pics but
- no timecode
- no sync
- no good audio subsystem - monitoring etc
but more than that
- 8 bit
- compressed - try filming high frequency sparkles on the water with subtle skies above
- line dropping
It is a great great camera but it is not a pro video/film workhorse - it was not designed as such. It was correctly designed as a stills camera with video added. The 5D is a testament to the film makers - to the inventiveness - their skill and the enthusiasm of some great people.
So while I would not have expressed it that way (Embarrassed is poor word choice) - he is right - Canon does not sell it as a pro video/film camera - people produce great results and put up with the limits due to the great lens options and the price. But would you call it Pro if it was exactly the same and cost $75,000 ? Of course not, you’d join in and say the $75,000 5D not professional enough to cost that… but simply lowering the price to $2500 doesn’t suddenly make it professional - just affordable.
Look I love the work film makers do with this camera - love it - I love the 5D - it is just not a pro video/film camera. It is a great camera and an insanely great camera for the price.
:-)
Mike
RT @royalgalactic: If you read Jannard’s quote he is saying camera MAKERS should be embarrassed for using line skipping.
Personally I am far to busy actually producing beautiful things with my Canon to be embarrassed. Perhaps if red produces a camera to compete someday I’ll buy it…but in the mean time Im not going to bet my creativity and my lifestyle on someone elses nonexistent vision of the future.
Mike…..everything you say is so correct, but arn’t we comparing apples to oranges? Canon would be the first to admit the mkII is not meant to compete with the Red.
But on the other hand, the camera is shipping. And isn’t it a little scary that they “Accidentally” created an HD camera that is now competing with Red? (Whether the specs truly dictate if its a true competitor at this point is irrelevant. People are still buying them “in place of” their non-existent Scarlet’s.)
Just like Red wants to push why you would shoot a film on the Red One instead of the Genesis, people are now pushing why you would shoot many projects on a mkII instead of a Red.
Why would I spend 100’s of thousands on a Genesis, when I can have a Red? Why would I spend 25K on a Red Package, when I could spend 5K on a nice mkII package.
Its just a bit disappointing to hear Jims comments, they seem out of place, and quite frankly, immature. He has to at least ship something in the same area of the business before trying to compare his products.
If Genesis is the Ferrari, Red is the BMW, and the mkII is the Toyota. Lots of people happily drive Toyotas.
“You see, the problem for my production business is that I’m having a hard time making money with my non-existent Scarlet camera system.”
Amen to that.
Jim can start talking smack when his camera isn’t a plastic prototype or 3D render. The main difference between the Scarlet and my 7D is that my camera actually exists.
Love the RED ONE, would love to love the Scarlet someday. As a producer I love the cost of these little DSLRs, if need be you can throw it out with the leftover craft service at the end of the shoot, but don’t forget to take the glass. As a DP/Operator/AC/DIT you better know how to use them. As an editor it’s a good exercise in the use of ProRes, if you’ve worked with RED you’ve probably know it well.
Recently, my partner and I shot a project for Heavy.com with the Canon T2i and Nikon primes (Bower adapter). The budget was really low, schedule was super tight, the space in Brooklyn was like a closet, they had no money for lights, and it was a night shoot. Couldn’t believe how well the T2i performed. Is it the greatest camera I’ve every used, no, but every tool has its place.
Don’t try to change their minds. Those unwilling to experiment and try new technology will soon go the way of the Dinosaur. More work for those willing to push the limits. In this economy every client wants to save money, and still get film like results. This little camera allows you to lower the budget, still make money, and provide great results.
BTW, the first time I used the RED was a lot like using the DSLRs. Pay for some patents and but some real buttons and switches on that camera. I’m so tried of all these menus.
I’ve received at least 10 calls in the past few months for 5D/7D shoots, and some of those were for RED/5D combo productions. Like it or not, these cameras are here to stay, and they’re fun to use. Clients will always resist what they don’t understand when they see this little camera on set, so blow their minds with the results.
Good point Joseph. One that everyone else seems to have missed.
@Joseph and @Stu Mannion - Perhaps Jannard’s comment was aimed at the manufacturers, though that’s certainly not how it reads to me.
If that is the case, however, consider that while Jim and Co were designing, then redesigning, then announcing, then re-announcing the perfect non-line skipping, RAW-shooting, breakfast-cooking camera…I made a boatload of money and shot some awesome projects on an “embarrassing” Canon camera that has some flaws I learned to work around.
I think RED should have pushed to market with their first Scarlet camera system. They went back to the drawing board, and it opening up a chance for Canon (and now others) to establish a foothold. Now there’s no going back…you can see that RED even realizes this; the amazing promise of “3K for $3K” is long gone. The current fixed lens Scarlet concept in it’s cheapest configuration is significantly more expensive than what was stated 2 NAB’s ago. Clearly RED has decided that they cannot (or do not wish to) compete with the DSLR end of filmmaking. This is made even more obvious by Scarlet being essentially shelved while they release EPIC.
Perhaps we should be embarrassed…for taking everything RED said at face value.
-MJ
Couldn’t agree more, Matt. When they originally announced SCARLET the odds of me owning a RED camera seemed pretty high. Now that big-chip CMOS video cameras are becoming more and more common, the odds are low — not just because of future cameras from Canon, Panasonic, and Sony, but alos the fact that I’ve never been a huge fan of most images I see from the RED ONE.
Thanks for a good reality check.
Hey @Mike Seymour thanks for your well-considered comments. Coupla thoughts…
You are correct that the 5D et al are not pro cameras by any stretch of the imagination. They are being used in ways that was never intended. But why? Because with DSLRs you can do things we’ve never been able to do before at this budget level.
And there’s no way I would put up with the workarounds if the 5D was priced up there in the 75K range. But that is exactly the point…it’s a sub $2500 camera. Price MUST be considered in any conversation about “acceptable” quality for a project. It’s a sliding scale, all relative to price.
Why is HDV & XDCAM used in professional applications? In the correct application it is acceptable quality for the price. Why do people put up with workarounds and occasional bugginess with the RED One? Price. You can do things you’ve never been able to do before with the RED at a previously-unheard of price point. The same holds true for DSLRs.
-MJ
Well played guys. I do love how many of people are having great success shooting with Canon DSLR’s and making wonderful things. Using these cameras are like for some who never shot film like going back to basics. Using your eyes and ears to make things right. I for one as a small time guy truly love how amazing this DSLR explosion is doing for the market. And creativity.
I almost feel the Scarlet is the “Duke Nukem Forever” of cameras. Still have nothing yet. It’s still vaporware in my eyes. Though I want it to come to market. RED is losing out. There products are wonderful, but they can’t make enough or for the matter fast enough. So, right now they are the loser and not Canon.
Nice zinger MJ. Very funny.
If a professional in the film, television, commercial, etc. uses it, doesn’t it make it a professional camera? Some would say no, but I’ve worked with either a 5d or 7d on 7 of my last ten paying jobs. So it’s a very professional camera to me. In terms of audio options, compression, and all the limiting factors that hold it back, that is just comparing it to broadcast cameras. Not all cameras are made for broadcast TV. Like you would never use a 35mm camera for broadcast tv. Also you would never use a newsroom robot controlled camera on a motion picture film. The bottom line really comes down to, if the image is good enough and the price is right, people will use it.
I will also add this, Jim Jannard shouldn’t really diss another camera until he’s able to work out all the bugs in his current camera. What kind of “professional” camera takes over a minute to bootup?
Jannard’s comments remind me of the rant my incumbent US Representative launched after he came in a distant second in the recent congressional primary. Instead of acknowledging the real problem (his own voting record and shifting politics) he went into a tirade, essentially telling the voters how stupid they were for not being smart enough to vote for him.
If Jannard would take an honest look at the situation, he’d see that RED is losing out because of their own faults and deficiencies. Instead, he seems to be denigrating the professionals who are “voting” with their Canons.
Wow, someone is putting the cart before the horse. A bit like Bill Gates complaining that Apple users are raving about something he has yet to release (and it sounds like he doesn’t plan to release).
In all fairness, the Red One was a game changer for the film industry - a camera THAT CHEAP that will do a full digital workflow and leave film in the lurch? Cool! Not bad for a guy that was making sunglasses.
Seems to me Red is bowing out of the video business in favor of the hi-res digital cinematography camera business. Good. They still have a great product. The hazards of being a pioneer are that you don’t get to be there by yourself for long and there are others watching and waiting to capitalize on your success. That’s business. Don’t think for one minute Canon, Panasonic, or any of the other camera companies are going to just sit by and do nothing when there’s money to be made on 2k or 3k cameras. I shoot on the T2i and 7D and I love ‘em. Hmmm, the sensor is pretty big on that camera…imagine if it could shoot 24 full frames a second (or 30 or 60 or 120…). I’d pay $4-5k for a camera that did that AND took all my Canon lenses (at full frame res of course, none of this APS-C stuff) right off the shelf. Maybe Canon will come up with something that lets you use the old XL lenses in a cine format.
Well, whatever. The RED isn’t even in the same market with DSLRs and the fact that he’s mentioning them suggests those lines may be getting a little blurry to the average person. Even on the Red site, they mention how big the Epic frame is compared to HD. Maybe he’s just frustrated because Canons are selling so well. I know of at least one person that was waiting on the Red Scarlet only to opt for the Canon T2i instead. D’oh.
Sour grapes.
That’s what Mr. Jannard seems to be suffering from.
The DSLR movement has taken some of the spark away from the yet to be seen Scarlet.
He thought he cornered the market (which he may have if he actually had a product to sell) but the DSLR came along at a price point that he won’t be able to touch.
Be embarrassed?
Only Red camera should be embarrassed for talking about a yet to be delivered camera that is already showing its age….
Yeah I see your points - and they are well made (and thanks to this community for a series of intelligent posts)…
I would like to add and follow up on one well made point…
There is room for both.
We shoot with Red and 5Ds - often on the same shoot. I completely prefer the Red for visual effects work - by a long way - and yet for location interviews/ head style shots - we often only take the 5D (although the recording time limit is a pain).
I will say that I feel having both Canon (and Nikon hopefully) competing with a Red Camera company and vice versa is healthy for the industry. It is not an original comment - but would the industry be better off without either ? I certainly don’t think so.
:-)
Anyway again - as per my original post - I applaud the creativity and excellence of the DOPs and film makers that use the 5D and produce such wonderful results. I think - rightly or wrongly - the impression is that Red was calling 5D film makers embarrassing - and clearly that is wrong. But I also look forward to using more professional large sensor small robust cameras
Mike
Good comments, thanks Mike!
-MJ
This was just posted on Reduser - I post it here in an effort to provide some closure.
This is unedited:
from reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46558&page=6
>>>>>
Heh heh… I’m surprised that so many people are reading posts from Reduser! :-) Wow.
Clarification #1. I think that Canon should be embarrassed about pretending that line-skipping is good enough when they have the capability to do much more. I’m sure they will in the near future. Until then, they are delivering much less than they are capable of… which is one of the reasons I started this company. No one in this industry seems to move unless they are forced to.
Clarification #2. No shooting professional has to justify what equipment they use… only their results.
If people want to correctly point out our flaws as a company, they will only be joining my previous admissions. We have no idea what we are doing. We are always late.
On the other hand, I would bet that no company in any industry cares more about their customers than RED does. We have taught the industry about free upgrades, trade ins and customer service at 3am. We have set a new standard for direct communication with our customers, a standard that other companies are trying to figure out how to emulate.
I don’t have any problem with someone pointing out that I have no idea what I am doing… I have said that all along. But it is curious that the industry is falling in line to “be like RED”. All I can say is … “don’t do it. You are following the wrong guy.” :-)
If these other websites are going to post my comments, I certainly hope they will post this one without edit.
BTW… we have taken a lesson from Apple. We will no longer discuss what we are doing until we are done.
Jim
If he was in fact referring to the manufacturers…. why should they be embarrassed about creating an absolutely fantastic 21mpx FF still camera.
The fact that they managed to add on respectable HD video for no extra cost seems something to be proud of, not embarrassed of…. surely?
I believe what he was saying they should be embarrassed about it is that they would advertise frame grabs from the video to be considered professional….
He wasn’t talking about the manufacturers, he was quite clear.
He’s just trying to remove that huge foot he stuck down his throat.
No class Jim, keep the mouth shut until you actually product something to compete.
I don’t really know why so many have panties in so tight a knot.
Gimme a break, the Canon range is superb, as long a you shoot to the strengths of their rather dramatic weaknesses. The RED is what the RED is, with it’s own rather dramatic weaknesses, which are substantially less than the Canon. Would you all bitch and moan if it was ARRI posting? Probably.
We live in the age is the artful or thoughtful or self-serving yet ultimately meaningless post.
Jannard was never slagging off low-end users with their DSLR’s, he was saying you can’t expect a film to be shot with the same results. And he’s 100% right.
Knickers, knot, get out of.
On the other hand, I would bet that no company in any industry cares more about their customers than RED does. We have taught the industry about free upgrades, trade ins and customer service at 3am. We have set a new standard for direct communication with our customers, a standard that other companies are trying to figure out how to emulate.
Thanks ;)
The problem is it’s a public perception thing more than anthing else. There’s technically nothing wrong with what Jim said. Just like Tony Heyward and his yachting around exotic islands while his company is responsible for one of the largest disasters in history. The guy is entitled to recration time off with his family and friends, it just looks so bad right now. Sometimes common sense needs to take over.
Canon designed these cameras due to the ever-changing photojournalists world. Rather than carrying two DSLR and a HD video camera, we now have two tools in one… WOW, isn’t that quite genius? Let’s see, House shot the final episode of this season using 5DMarkII. Perhaps RED’s Jim Jannard is getting a little nervous about this….
Jim Jannard and his red cult are annoying…Jim just ship your vapor hardware and stop talking ish about actual shipping hardware!!
It’s amusing to watch people turn on RED, and so quickly.
Many of these same people first held RED up to be the coolest company in film, doing just about everything right. The camera was ground-breaking. The CEO was a daring entrepreneur and no-nonsense kind of guy. There was full confidence in Red’s way-ambitious release plans. They were leaving everyone else in the dust, etc. etc.
And now, not too much later, Red’s in the doghouse, and people are looking for excuses (like Jim’s innocuous post) to kick it.
Ah, the masses are a fickle bunch…
Well not everyone can afford a red…. so whats the prob?
So…. the other evening I invited a bunch of people over to my house for my very special Filet mignon steak dinner… Well, it took a little while for the steaks to cook….
but… everyone loved the steak…. best they’ve ever had… but then all of a sudden they all started yelling at me that their hots dogs were better than my steak!
So…. I told them that I’d be embarrassed to serve everyone hot dogs at my house…. it’s my frick’n house…. you ass holes!
I’m sure Jim would agree that one should use what you have, get what you can afford, make the best with what you have, live for today so that tomorrow can be even better.
The ONLY advantages the 5d2 etc have over the RED ONE are weight, size, and price …. period.